Title The Promise and Peril of Innovation

Kevin Hogan OK. Hello and welcome everyone to another episode of Innovation and Education. E Campus News is podcast series on the latest and Greatest in Education tech and its application in the higher end space. My name is Kevin Hogan. I am content director for E Campus News and I am happy you clicked through and found us today as we delve into the world of education, innovation and the future of learning. Today's episode is going to be packed with insights and inspiration, so buckle up and get ready for this engaging discussion. My guest is Doctor Nick Swain, who began serving as president of North Idaho College in the fall of 2022. Doctor Swain came to Nic after serving as the executive director of four of Virginia, a collaborative partnership between 8 universities in that state. He is also the founder of a comprehensive academic innovation ecosystem at James Madison University. Over his past 22 years in higher education, doctor Swain has developed extensive experience in accreditation, recruiting and retention. As an academic department head and center director, he served as an area lead during multiple accreditation reviews where he was involved in the entire two year cycle that comprises a scheduled full accreditation visit. Recruiting programs he developed also resulted in A5 fold increase in departmental enrollments. Between 2007 and 2010, he grew Virginia's first Lego League, a robotic STEM program, for 9 to 14 year olds, which went from 138 teams to the world's largest program with nearly 700 teams. President Swain grew up mostly in the Moscow ID area and earned his bachelor's degree from the University of Idaho. He went on to earn a Masters degree in public administration from Northeastern University and a doctorate in post secondary strategic leadership from JMU. I found his ideas and insights to be refreshingly frank. And I hope you do too. Have a listen. OK, Nick, thanks so much for your time and your insights today. I really appreciate it. Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College Yeah, you say that on the. Kevin Hogan Front end but and as we discussed you know before we started recording, I think we had spoken at some point in, in the past four years as with everything else, everything's a little fuzzy during a COVID, the one in the where. But I know you have been busy since our last conversations. Maybe you can kind of fill us in on the. The latest and greatest of of what you've been doing. Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College Sure. We we actually started the E sports program. I think that's when we chatted last before I left JU and that that's going well. Ex lab was up and running, it was it's was really good. It's still I think it's still doing OK and the E sports was just kind of the the last thing that I did before leaving and. Speaker OK. Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College And then finished my PhD in that around 2020. And you know, I'm kind of a non traditional guy anyway. So I got my PhD way late and wanted to to take on other roles and thinking about what, what it would take to. Really create an innovative campus as opposed to just an innovative space on a campus. And so started looking at opportunities to take on a more of a leadership role on A at a campus level and came to North Idaho colleges, the president. Kevin Hogan Well, that's great. Congratulations. That's seems like certainly a leap across the country, if not anything else. But I know a lot of the the innovative strategies that we discussed again with the ex lab, I'm sure that you've brought with you up to Idaho maybe. Talk a little bit about the size of the school, the shape of the school, how you you know, your work has changed, as you said, as you're going from maybe what was a facility in a lab at a campus to something that is campus wide? Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College I'll I'll say part of my approach to innovation really came from Idaho. I grew up here. I graduated from University of Idaho and then went out and did my career in the Army and ended up back at Jay. Of you. So coming back here was an opportunity to to bring that innovation culture to a campus. You know, it's it's really hard to at a four year institution people people typically go to a four year institution. The success of a four year education is you get a bachelors degree and so N out of college. The Community College, well, a lot of folks in and these are things that you don't think about until you've really been embedded in a Community College, but success in the Community College doesn't always mean getting an associate. History. We have a great math program and so students that want to become engineers take all of the six or seven math courses that they need to get into an engineering program. They they take those here and then they transfer to a four year. And so they don't complete their associates degree. And so those are those are things you don't think about and. Speaker Mm-hmm. Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College You you look at sometimes the statistics of success at a Community College and you think, well, while they're only 30% of the kids are going to the Community College or getting their associates degree, they must be not, you know, doing something wrong. Well, no. It's because. A lot of folks just stop and get what they need and then they go out either into the workforce or or they go on to a four year institution or something else. And so 30% success rate on associates is actually kind of high, but the college has just under 4000 full time equivalent students. We have a a state-of-the-art career and Technical Education Center. That really puts my ex lab to shame in terms of its capabilities. It's it's really phenomenal. And then we have a workforce training center, which is our non credit based program where we train our, our students and non traditional students to upskill or get the skills they need in collaboration with them. With an employer. And so those are kind of the the traditional things that we do 3 three parts. The Associates degree Traditional Associates degree program whether they finish or not to transfer to a four year the the current technical education for credit. So you get a skilled trade and then the the non credit workforce training. Those are those are the traditional roles of the Community College and that's what we're doing probably total of about 10,000 students. 4000 in the in in the transfer programs either CTE or or other. So that kind of breaks it down. Speaker OK. Kevin Hogan And again, I I hate talking about it, but the pandemic is still. Kind of within the context of of conversations, especially when it comes to education and and higher education, a lot of hyperbole over the the past couple of years about the death of higher education, the the violent changes that may occur. This is different ways. When you look at assessment technologies and the needs for degrees and traditional degrees. And the change in the behavior of students, really. I mean, just the the the past couple of years of how they their expectations of how they're going to be educated, talk a little bit about your experience through this time and any sort of innovations that you've kind of seen, you know spring from the. Evidence. Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College So I'll I'll tell you, it's something that we are currently in the midst of doing now, which I think is probably the most. Beneficial innovation if we can, if we can pull it off and that is tradition. As I said you, you had these workforce training programs not for credit, you had career and technical education and then you had the transfer programs or the the traditional associate degree programs and at most community colleges, ours included, those are all treated completely separate silos. And so you. You you don't move from one to the other, but I I think now one of the issues that we have is a country with higher Ed is. Is really being able to express clearly the value proposition for the students, and so the the value proposition for students and parents typically now is what, what kind of a job am I going to get? Am I going to get it if I spent two years in a training program, am I going to make enough money to offset? The loss of income during that two year period. It and the the the pay differential, right? So if I just started working at a you know a one of our favorite food service organizations now you can make 18 bucks an hour. So if you if you take two years of school or four years of school, are you going to graduate making more than 18 bucks an hour? And not only do you have the 18 bucks an hour, but. You've got anywhere from 4000 to 20,000 or $100,000 in debt that you've got to pay off. Are you gonna earn enough to make it worthwhile to pay all that off? If not, you know, make making some of those smart choices. So one of the things that we're trying to do is. Create academic hubs if you will. Where so. So we teach. We teach students how to Weld, how to how to run a milling machine. Some of those are are just weekend classes, not for credit. Some of them are two year certifications on being a a mill. Right. That's a two year certification. But the non credit. Courses you may take for a weekend over the course of a year, you take all those courses. It's the same content as if you've taken a year long certification program, but we don't allow the students to do the the non credit stuff and transfer that into the for credit stuff. So they end up if they decide to kind of upskill, they have to redo all that. And and so. We're working now to figure out make that a seamless pathway. So you if you kind of get your your fingers. Dirty with the machining and you say, well, this is really cool. I want to upskill. Then you can move from there right into a machinist and then some of those students that that have done that program. Realize that while they were in high school, they weren't good at math or science because they didn't see an application, but now they get into the machine tool or carpentry. Whatever the case may be, and they get they they they figure out what it really is. Then they say, you know, I I actually can do that math. And I can do. Because now it's they're doing it for a purpose and so being able to transition, those folks that are kind of. Learning the fundamentals of engineering by doing how do we allow those students to continue on and actually get an engineering degree? And so we would do the at a Community College, we would do the free engineering program, all, all the math and some of the the science physics behind it and then be able to transfer those folks directly and efficiently into a four year program where they can complete. Their engineering degree and go off and really do what they're capable of doing as opposed to what they've self limited. You know their career pathways to. Kevin Hogan Now, have you seen any or have you worked at all with micro credentialing? I know that that is some something that is kind of part and parcel to some of the strategies. You're talking about. Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College That's that's all part of it. I mean we've we've got to figure out how do you if you if you start with you can start at either end, you start an engineering degree and say what are the how, how do you encapsulate those, those things that we want students to do. 2 into 3 or 4, three or four courses of content and say if you if you finish this it it's going to take you one step closer and and add value to you and your employer so that you can get promoted or whatever whatever the case may be. So you can you. Can do that and stop. Or you can continue on, take another three or four credit or three or four course block of of classes that that will get you to the next level. So exactly micro credentialing and the same thing applies to the non credit side. So if you do these things, we'll credential you as a. Apprentice welder, whatever the sometimes the title doesn't really. We don't have the titles, but we'll we'll give you that credential that says you can do something that's meaningful to your employer. So when you hand them the credential, it means something it it's it's not good enough just to make certificates that we think are valuable. We've got to work with the employers to make sure that they're valuable to them as well. Kevin Hogan Yeah, it it does seem to be such a perception game, right? I mean, even again when everything went online and you saw a lot of online classes going up, even some of the the big dogs, right, the Ivy Leagues providing certificates and and using, there's some brand confusion. There's a big difference between getting it online or in person, Community College. Speaker Yeah. Kevin Hogan Love them and you're you're there in Idaho. I would. I would guess that the majority of the folks who are going through your program are looking for employment in your your particular region. Is that a cultural shift that you have to kind of influence the wider community? That these idea of micro credentialing and and courses or or or somehow worthwhile? Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College Well, that's a great question. I I don't. I don't think so. I think if we as an institution N out of college has a we have a reputation of producing really well prepared students. So if as we produce these micro credentials, it's it's incumbent upon us to work with the. Employers to say what do you need and what's the next step? Yeah. And so as we build these programs, we build them in collaboration with employers and they trust us that if if we say this person can do these things, that we have evidence and have trained them to do those things and are, you know, we're putting our name on that as well and and and and that's our accountability. And so we've done very well. You know, we have one one of our one of our kind of signature programs is our nursing program. And you a lot of people don't realize this, that when you graduate from a four year institution as a nurse, you take the same exact test that our students take after two years. Kevin Hogan Hmm. Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College Did you know that? Kevin Hogan Yeah. Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College It's called the NCLEX, right? So the NCL X and it's a national exam for for registered nurses. So you can get a Bachelors of science in nursing from a four year institution, which means you've got all the Gen. heads on top of the nursing skills. Or you can just get an RN from a two year institution and you take the same. Exact test. So we just went through a recent accreditation review for our nursing program and our students are getting about 98 or 99% of the students that start the program, finish the program and about 99% ninety 899% are passing the influx, which is a much higher pass rate than many of the four years. Kevin Hogan Hmm. Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College And so that that's really a testament to the quality of the programs, the quality of facilities, the quality of the faculty and the other thing is we we generally take a much. Broader range of students than a four year does. Just getting into a four year institution. Is a little. More of a filter than getting into a two year. So we're taking everybody and having a higher pass rate. And so when you do that in multiple programs and and we do, you gain that credibility to get. To to be able to work with employers, to give those micro credentials that are meaningful. I think that's really it. It's a it's a whole package deal that you can't just say we're going to give micro credentials. They have to be meaningful to the employers and that you have to be credible in in what you're offering. Kevin Hogan So it sounds to me that you mean you had discussions with the employers. I mean they are part and parcel of creating the curriculum. Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College Oh yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. Now, I mean, there's for for things like nursing, there is a, there's a national curriculum that you have to follow. There are certain skills and of course that's what the. More, there are certain skills in other areas like welding. You know we can be a little bit more flexible. There's still tests that you have to take to be certified in welding. But we can add things and and take things off depending on on the needs of our employers and a lot of those skills are are pretty common. So there's not a huge differential and if somebody needs a welder. That need somebody that has all those capabilities. And so you know, generally speaking the national certification is pretty close to to meeting their needs. Speaker Yeah. Kevin Hogan Is this something that is still? In process I mean or do you feel that that this is there's still kind of an evolution when it comes to standardizing this sort of strategy when it comes to assessment? Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College Oh, this is this is all. I mean, this this kind of hub where you're going from from non credit to associates and on the bachelors that that's a I I think a lot of folks have tried to do that in the past in, in, in different ways or maybe limited in in this in scope. But I think it's it's something a lot of folks a lot of community colleges. And for your institutions are are looking at it as a way to do it. And so you know, we have a. Part part of my repertoire back at at JMU was doing things a little bit different and then really trying to accentuate it. Speaker Right. Kevin Hogan Right. Well, you're, you're you're definitely certainly further along the path. I mean, you're kind of ahead of the pack when it comes to a lot of this stuff, especially at the Community College level. What is your advice to some of our our readers, our listeners, who may not be as far along in terms of how to prioritize a strategy of going towards a micro credential path? Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College So I I think in almost every case the issue is one of visioning right and faculty I it. I don't think it matters whether you're in the non credit credit and technical education side or what the the faculty ultimately are interested in, how do we help our students? How do we help them succeed? How we help them get better? And and and if you can frame it in that way is this is going to be a big benefit to our students long term and to our community long term you can get around some of the traditional roadblocks of territory and silos and those are the things that really become roadblocks for for progress is you know the the faculty don't see. How this is going to help or they see it as a threat? You're changing things and they're not sure. And so if if you can really frame it in a way that like this is a win for everyone and and breakdown those barriers, I think that's probably the biggest challenge. And we made really good progress with that here. And so I the faculty, the, the academic side of campus. Is really getting behind it, so I think that's probably the biggest challenge that you have in at an institution. Kevin Hogan Yeah. Now, how about your your own checklist as you look over two or three years hence, what are your hopes for next steps? I guess you know specifically when it comes to these these particular strategy? Please. Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College Well, when the process of doing our new strategic plan and so we're building that into the into the strategic plan and trying to work through what are the, what are the interim steps that will be needed. But we're well while I say that we're also not waiting for that to come to completion before we start working on it. And so we're we're. Actually, starting back at the dual credit side, so students that are still in high school, getting them lined up and getting some of the prerequisites out of the way. So they feel more self efficacy that they, they feel they can succeed when they get to college. So getting more students to participate in that. Getting them to come on to finish their associates degree, those are that recruiting issue and it goes back to what you said about earlier about the the enrollment numbers. There's still a lot of students out there. The the challenge we have is that there are students that are not advancing from high school on to it post secondary training at a time when the country needs more. People with post secondary education, so for us it's the value proposition canvas that we worked on back at at. Next lab, how do you present the value proposition to parents and students so that students see the the return on investment and and keeping those enrollment numbers strong and and increasing the percentage of students that go on to two and four year institutions? Kevin Hogan Well, Nick is always exciting stuff. You're doing a lot of really kind of innovative, interesting things that I know our readers and our listeners soak up. Again, appreciate your time and your insights and look forward to following your continued success. Speaker Yes. Nick Swayne, President , North Idaho College Thank you very much. I appreciate Kevin. Kevin Hogan And that's all we have for this month's episode. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform, and be sure to bookmarkecampusnews.com for similar content. Until next month, I'm Kevin Hogan.